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The Boundaries of Science

by ranfuchs @ 2008-04-06 - 10:30:28

einstein

As strange as it may sound, modern science is not directly concerned with reality, but rather with models of it. Reality is the realm of philosophy. The essence of science is the scientific theory, whose purpose is to provide coherent explanations to observations; an objective aptly summed up by the physics Nobel laureate, Richard Feynman (1918–1988):

No one has ever seen the inside of a brick. Every time you break the brick, you only see the surface. That the brick has an inside is a simple theory which helps us understand things better. The theory of electrons is analogous … The electron is a theory that we use; it is so useful in understanding the way nature works that we can almost call it real.

Although theory is at the heart of science, not every theory is scientific. For a theory to be scientific it must first be internally consistent, that is, it should lead to no logical or mathematical paradoxes. If, for instance, a theory could lead to a conclusion that an object may simultaneously exist in two different places, the theory would not be consistent and cannot be deemed scientific. (This example is a paradox that contradicts the principle of space and time: a physical object exists separately in space and time in such a way that they are localizable and countable.)

Unlike mathematical models – which being the creation of the human mind require internal consistency only -- scientific theories based on these models must also be testable: that is, it does not matter how elegant or internally consistent a theory may be, if it does not agree with observations external to the theory, it is wrong. This requirement means that a theory can be considered scientific only after test criteria can be defined. That is, every theory is potentially refutable. Contrary to the common belief, turning scientific does not necessarily improve a theory or make it more reliable, as it may often lead, inadvertently, to the refutation of the theory;

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jackfrostjackfrost pro
2008-04-06 @ 11:03

Science has no Boundaries just sometimes lack of imagination...strangly enough I often feel that the film makers and the like stimulate people to look beyond ehat they belived was possible...a prime example was the original star trek..what the film makers gave the characters...we have in reality today!!!

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 11:16

Interesting that the mobile phone (featuring in star trek) was first mentioned by The 35th o May by Erick Kastner in the 30s.

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:27

But that is technology, not science.

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 11:05

And no theory can ever be completely proved, only disproved.
We can never know 'reality' directly, but only as it is mediated through our own perceptions - including theories.
But this does not mean (as non-scientists sometimes seem to think) that any theory has equal value with any other, because they are all 'just theories'.
A theory which has been thoroughly tested against empirical data and not refuted by that data is robust and may be a good basis for practical action. But ask any competent and honest scientist whether they are 'sure' it is correct, and they will always say they are not - because we can never be 'sure' about anything.
This leads to an awful lot of confusion.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 11:18

It all depends on your set of beliefs. Do you believe that the world around us is the world that we perceive through our senses. And what is the relationship between our perception of the world and the world itself.

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 11:44

You may believe that it is, or you may not.
Personally, I do believe that it is.
But I readily accept that I can never 'know' in a 100% way.
The world doesn't depend on my set of beliefs. But my relationship to it does.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:02

here we differ considerably. I strongly believe that there is no reason to assume it is.

I may write about it another time

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:20

No reason to assume that what is what?
If you mean, that the world around us that which we perceive through our senses, I agree completely, there is absolutely no reason to assume that.
I only believe it is so because mostly the model seems to work pretty well in practice.
But I readily accept that this is purely my subjective belief and has no rational justification.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:22

Yes, this is what I meant

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:26

So, we do agree.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:42

sadly

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 13:44

:)

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 11:54

The 'confusion' I was referring to above was the confusion which arises in the minds of politicians, media, public etc when scientists refuse to commit themselves to saying they are 100% sure about anything.
My usual example is with BSE, when politicians, media etc etc kept saying it was 'safe' to eat beef because scientists had not 'proved' that there was any risk.
Until, of course, the 'proof' did come along - when up went the cry: 'Why didn't you tell us?'

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:04

I love politicians. They believe in something, as absurd as it may be, find some scientists who have some theories that might back them up, and then make policies. Later, the theory may be proven wrong, but the policy is already there, and will not be changed because our knowledge has.

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:22

Well, in this case the policy was changed because people started dying.
And the Government were thrown out at the next election.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:24

How lucky we are that death, at least, is a reason for chaning policies :>

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:30

That's normally what it takes.
Read my PhD thesis.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:44

I will. Some day

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:29

Actually, this case was slightly different from that.
Scientists discovered a potential problem, and informed the politicians about it. The politicians then refused to accept that there was any need to change policies because the scientists could not prove that the problem existed. Until people started dying.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:43

I still love politicians :>

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 13:47

I don't wish to know about your perversions.
Kindly keep them to yourself.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 14:26

I thought that was what attracted you to this blog in the first place

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 14:39

That's only your belief

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 21:06

Who says I was attracted?
Stumbled across, more like.
Personally, I'd rather be elsewhere, finding out what happened to your balls.

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 13:46

Actually, I AM going to disagree with you. I’ve been thinking about this while I did my hoovering (ask me how the hoovering went, BTW).
I think you’ve got it completely the wrong way round. I can’t think of a single example where a politician initiated this process, as in, looking for a theory to fit their beliefs. I don’t think they give any thought to science at all unless they absolutely have to.
What usually happens, as in the BSE case (at least when it comes to environmental issues, which is what I know most about), is that scientists observe/identify a potential problem and try to flag it up to the politicians, in the vain hope that they will do something about it. What quite often happens then, apart from the politicians trying to discredit the scientists and downplay their results, is that they THEN try to find somebody, anybody, with some kind of alternative theory that means they don’t have to do anything. In this, they usually have the support of powerful vested interests, such as the agribusiness companies or the food industry.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 14:25

Mainly in the health care area (I am familiar as some of my family members seem to be employed there) they have some general ideas, which is mostly economically derived, ( say number of nurses per bed). Then they look for scientific research that shows that too many nurses make hospitals crowded and less efficient (well not truely scientific, but that's what they call anything that has some stat in it). Then they set policy.

When at some later stage the original research is refuted, the policy is not reversed.

We should have research dependent policies.

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 14:44

Interesting.
I suspect that happens in other areas too, such as education.
I agree completely with your final para.
so, we are agreeing again :)
and I've learnt something.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 14:55

which goes back to my anti-democratic revolution

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 21:02

In what way?
Please elucidate.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 21:04

in the most obvious way. The way of our book

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 21:09

Which book would that be?
the Good one?
or the Even Better one (which we haven't written yet)?

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 11:21

Besides, I love the :"it's just a theory". Thermodynamics is 'just a theory', still we rely on it enough to build engines, and trust aeroplanes to fly. Just theories can be quite useful.

This is unlike God, who is a solid fact, but no one has yet found how to use it productively

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 11:48

Agree completely.
sorry, if you thought I was going to argue with you over this, I'll have to disappoint you.
In fact, I was just thinking, yet again, how disturbingly alike our ideas are. I thought I was the only geek who bothered to think about stuff like this.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 12:00

I am the king of geeks by the way.
And I did not expect an argument. I merely expressed my view. Which I am allowed to, as it is my blog after all :)

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 12:24

I suppose I could concede that.
I very rarely comment on this blog, just because most of it is stuff I already know about and agree with, and therefore I don't feel I have anything add.

TomTheCatTomTheCat [Member]
2008-04-06 @ 11:38

thank you for this entry, ranfuchs. i agree with you, and i just wanna tell you, that i often think about the subject you started to discuss.

just the simple fact, that we human beings are part of the world as we seem to know it shows how difficult it is to research the functionality of it... sure, we came a rather long way in our scientific studies, but never will we reach the final knowledge!

and to try to explain the world based merely on our mathematics will not work, because mathematics is just a help to understand, it is not the basic of our world.

what the basics of our world are - we still don't know...

and as long as we put a huge part of scientifics in war-technology, we don't even understand the most simple principles of life!

have a nice day!
tom

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-06 @ 11:52

thanks Tom. You have given me lots to think about it. I will try and see if I can write about it in my follow up post. And I completely agree. As long as we focusing on war technology just demonstrates how much we don't really know anything, and how little we have evolved – if at all

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-27 @ 07:47

Any idea who Ian is?
some mate of Albert's???

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-27 @ 09:42

read about his life, and you will know it all

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-28 @ 07:25

Know where I can get hold of a copy of Ian's biography?

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-04-28 @ 09:27

ask albert, he may have a spare copy

CassandraofTroyCassandraofTroy [Member]
2008-04-28 @ 09:42

Can you let me have his email?

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