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Copernicus and the Church

by ranfuchs @ 2008-02-17 - 23:56:52

copernicus

As we have seen in our last posting in this blog Copernicus, who postulated a model in which the sun was at the centre of the universe. knew that the clear advantages of his model would not protect him from the hostile reaction of the orthodox authorities and the Inquisition, and it was not until 1543 – the year of his death – that he eventually published his complete work On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres.

It is clear from the extent of the criticism of his work that Copernicus challenged not only the knowledge of the cosmos, as portrayed by the church, but he challenged knowledge itself: Should our impartial experience determine our understanding, or is it our knowledge that the world should conform to?

For example, Tolosani, a contemporary of Copernicus, wrote:

[Copernicus] seems to be unfamiliar with Holy Scripture since he contradicts some of its principles, not without the risk to himself and to the readers of his book of straying from the faith. ... in his imagination he changes the order of God's creatures in his system. ... he seeks to raise the Earth from its lower place to the sphere where everybody by common consent correctly locates the Sun's sphere, and to caste the sphere of the Sun down to the place of the Earth, contravening the rational order and Holy Writ, which declares that heaven is up, while the Earth is down.

It was most likely, therefore, that the Church would have condemned Copernicus’ work, had it not been for an introduction inserted by the publisher. The introduction stated that the book merely presented a simpler way to calculate the positions of heavenly bodies, and that “the hypotheses contained within made no pretense to truth that, in any case, astronomy was incapable of finding the causes of heavenly phenomena.” This unauthorized insertion, although appalling to many, ensured the book was not immediately condemned. In fact, it was publicly available for over 70 years before it was subject to censorship.

Although some were sentenced to death for their support of Copernicus’ heliocentric system (for example, Giordano Bruno was burnt alive in 1600) it was not until 1616 that the Church placed the work on the List of Prohibited Books (Index Librorum Prohibitorum) and decreed that “the propositions that the Sun is immobile and at the center of the universe and that the Earth moves around it, judging both to be ‘foolish and absurd in philosophy,’ and the first to be ‘formally heretical’ and the second ‘at least erroneous in faith’ in theology.” By then, however, Copernicus’ mathematics had already been widely in use, and although many still viewed it as a hypothetical calculation model, it was unavoidable that questions about the nature of the cosmos as derived from the model would arise.

The scientific revolution had begun.

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PrettyintelligentprincessPrettyintelligentprincess [Member]
2008-02-18 @ 00:06

I love the beginning of this...Whose lecture notes are you copying from? 'As WE have seen...' Not being disrespectful or anything...and it is very clear you do know what you are talking about!!!!
I am a linguistics specialist...sorry!!!

The fundamental point...well yes, I would imagine the church would be incensed...as indeed they were with Darwinism. To have science within the community is the recipe for the community to lose faith; if faith is lost, the power of the church clearly diminishes.
Ironically,in today's scientifically and technologically aware world..the need for faith and solace appears to be increasing....just my opinion...but there you go! I always get the wrong jigsaw piece when having a game of logic.

I think the need for faith is increasing today because science and technology are beginning to establish some irrefutable - well as near as is possible to be irrefutable - facts about our universe, and that makes people insecure. The scientists definitely appear to dethrone deities, and people fear annihilation, which it seems science is showing them is the only thing awaiting them after death...people cling to what promises to be a continuation after their death...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 09:11

Science, at best will be able show that there is no necessity for a god, and that things can work without Her. But I know of no science that tells us what happens after death. Do you?

No :) Not that I know of...big hugs....

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 22:30

I'll keep looking

Good idea, Ranfuchs...HLOL...though how you'll find out I haven't the faintest notion...would be nice to know if anybody really had found out...I notice Jesus didn't say anything at all about the afterlife...which, if you think about it, was a bit mean of him if he was God...he, of all people on earth, should have been able to give us just a small clue...but no, not a sausage...that I call playing your cards close to your chest...maybe he did not know the answer either...hmmm....now throws up a whole new set of questions...big hugs...:)

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-19 @ 23:38

maybe he knew the answer, but thouoght that we were not going to like it

nah, I don't think so...I don't think he knew the answer...:)

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-20 @ 08:05

I don't think he ever existed, but that's another matter altogether

Well not as written about in the Bible, but a Roman historian did record his existence so it seems pretty certain a man of that name did live around that time...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 00:28

Actually, as far as I managed to find there is nothing of the sort. If you are talking about Yazefus Flavius, this is misconception. He mentions James, the brother of Jesus, but that was (and still is) a pretty common Hebrew name, and has nothing to do with Jesus as we 'know' him.

As the stories of Jesus appeared in many culture many thousands of years before Jesus, I believe that Jesus is totally a fictitious figure, just like Zeus or Venus.

There are a few oblique references outlined in more detail here...
http://www.bibles.com/brcpages/HistoricalJesus
But, I agree with you, the records are very thin on the ground...there was a very interesting prog called The Secrets of the Bible...made by a Jewish archaeologist and a Jewish biblical scholar if my memory serves me right, and they systematically undid all of the stories including the descriptions of the size and power of Jerusalem according to the scriptures, and proved that all the patriarchs were fictitious characters created to illustrate a particular aspect of belief in their God...basically they concluded that the Jews came from the tribes of Canaan and were warrior shepherds who never actually left the area...they rose to a position of power over the centuries but exaggerated their history and conquests and muddled up the dates as well...the Bible is the first great book of fiction...alas!

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 02:01

Yes, I am familiar with the original writing (have some religious education background).

Josephus is the only source where Jesus is mentioned, and this is dubious. The name Christ, in Hebrew means from Nazareth, nothing to do with the cross or crucifixion. The earliest scripts we know of were written at least 40 years after the alleged death of Jesus.

So you are absolutely right, outside our belief there is nothing at all to say that Jesus is anything more than a fictitious character.

Really is a very strange business isn't it, that somebody who might or might not have existed in the way he's been presented in the Bible has had such an effect on the world...we would never have had all this damned trouble in the world if the authors of the Old Testament, only written I believe around half a century before Jesus was born, and then followed by the New written some 100 - 170 years after his death, had decided it was time to create a new history for their people in both cases!! There would be no Moslem religion, no Christian religion and the Jewish religion would never have acquired the intransigence it has now...those original authors of both have a great deal to answer for especially to all those who have died for each religion...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 12:05

then there would have been some other religion, probably even worse. The only thing we can say about these religions that they won (mostly by force) over the others.

It could have been completely different history if Pagan religion would have won, for instance

yes, I think human and animal sacrifice would have been practised for a heck of a lot longer, and maybe the Pagan religions would have saved the earth from the destruction we're wreaking on it but, whatever religion would have emerged to replace the ones we have, human beings turn everything they touch into another source of power over, and control of, the masses...such a damn shame...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 12:34

lets replace our evolution

I think we're on the way to doing that...everything will change drastically I think when the singularity occurs...once computers are as intelligent as humans, they will advance far more quickly than we can and that will change us and our world forever.

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 09:08

I would argue that we are not scientifically and technologically aware world. The big majority, we simply use technological gadgets, but few are aware what they are.

Science? Most people don’t even understand the most basic of science. 7 out of 10 university graduates failed to explain why winters are colder than summers?

You know where I've been going wrong all my life? I thought it was Galileo who first realised that the Sun was at the centre of our solar system! Maybe I was "under the influence" of this song:

I see a little silhouetto of a man,
Scaramouche,scaramouche will you do the fandango?
Thunderbolt and lightning-very very frightening
Galileo,Galileo,
Galileo Galileo
Galileo Figaro-magnifico-
But Im just a poor boy and nobody loves me-
Hes just a poor boy from a poor family...

etc etc

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 09:15

Galileo was a strong believer that Copernicus model was a true description of the world rather than a mere mathematical model. Probably he deserve some mentioning in my next post

rubychoorubychoo [Member]
2008-02-18 @ 03:44

If 'civilization' (ie: the sum of our knowlege) died tomorrow, and we were born the day after that.....

Would we have the same chance as any other predatory creature on this planet?.

Do you think we could we start again , with only our parents and our thin-skinned hairless backsides and minds between us and the otherwise evolved world ?.

What do you think will happen in the very long run ?

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 09:23

So many hard questions :) and I don't really think my thinking does matter very much. But it never stopped me anyway. It’s probably need a few long posts but in short:

If our knowledge died tomorrow, we would annihilate each other, diseases will do a good job as well, until a few would survive in a big empty world and will start all over again. It won’t be the same world, but it would suffer from the same basic problem of fear and greed and suffering. They are built too deeply into us to shake them off.

In the long run? Men will die and the human race will be made of women only

If all the men die, so will the women...???

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-19 @ 23:40

why should that happen?

Are you really asking me that? Well, unless there's artificial insemination around then and a lot of sperm banks...there's going to be no more babies born if all the men die out....so after a few decades every one of the women will die then...no more humans...hmmm...I can't believe I answered that question...HLOL....you must be having me on...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-20 @ 08:06

I was thinking more about Dolly the sheep

Cloning!! Hmmm...maybe but don't think so, wouldn't like a world without men personally even if you're all a pain in the butt sometimes :))...a world with only woman would not be pleasant at all...you only have to go to a convent to see that the dominant and most like male nuns rise to the top while the more passive and female like nuns are the ones led...I'm not passive by any means but also have no desire to dominate anybody so would be out on a limb even in that world...HLOL...big hugs...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 00:29

and yet, I believe that this is our future

Hmmm...I would find that very depressing...LOL...men have repressed women for thousands of years, but a world of one sex only would be just plain boring...I think it's far more likely that we will eventually become asexual creatures growing new bodies in artificial wombs, and loading our consciousnesses into computers then downloading them again into a brand new body...:) the little grey creatures that so many people believe abduct them are probably our future selves who have learned how to fold space, and travel back in time to carry out experiments on us, we, being to them equivalent to chimpanzees for us...everything comes full circle...we experiment on our primal ancestors, and so will our descendants experiment on us eventually...howzabout that for a flight of the imagination...HLOL...big hugs...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 01:50

|No. Women will turn lesbians, and will clone themselves to perfection

Nah, we're perfect already...just making ourselves damned miserable trying to please indifferent males...HLOL...

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-22 @ 11:55

absolutly. As soon as we perfect cloning, lets get rid of men

aquamudaquamud [Member]
2008-02-18 @ 21:26

...does anyone realise that chasing tails is foolish?

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 21:33

tell it to the puppy

aquamudaquamud [Member]
2008-02-18 @ 21:56

...i won't waste my time

ranfuchsranfuchs pro
2008-02-18 @ 22:17

don't tell it to the puppy

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